Because of the interest groups you mention, I think the only solution is to massively increase spending on universities. I would rather ensure that we have space for every smart person, at the expense of wasting money on dumb people, than shut out both. It looks bad, but this is only because people have difficulty visualizing the opportunity cost of excluding smart people. Where do they go? What do they do? It's hard to see the wealth that ends up not being generated as a result of exclusion.
It is really a huge loss if a 125+ iq individual attends a less prestigious university? I vaguely remember some journal articles saying that it is was better to be the big fish in a small pond than a regular one in a big one. Basically that it was better to be the one of the best student in a smaller university than a regular one in Harvard.
(I know, they probably cited « stoodies » instead of real science)
This analysis is both trivial and not very insightful. I doubt that IQ and ACT score are highly correlated past a lower bound of say a 33. Additionally, many of the non test score factors that actually decide admission (since test scores don’t really matter for elite admissions past a threshold) seem to be just those factors that differentiate someone who is *just* academically gifted from someone who is gifted and highly capable
>Additionally, many of the non test score factors that actually decide admission (since test scores don’t really matter for elite admissions past a threshold) seem to be just those factors that differentiate someone who is *just* academically gifted from someone who is gifted and highly capable
Empirically, the nonacademic ratings that universities give students are not predictive of life outcomes.
There have been a lot of studies of average IQ by field of study. Some of the STEM fields routinely test with averages in the high one teens to mid 120's, putting students in those fields rougly on par with the students at elite universities.
In my experience cost is the most common reason. Students who can get into an elite school are also in the zone of being able to score really good scholarships with state schools. Not just mediocre schools, but upper level state schools with SAT averages above 1300 and sometimes above 1400. The second most common reason is that they weren’t academic tryhards (no offense to the academic tryhards). The average 125 IQ person is gonna get below a 1500 on the SAT but the average 125 IQ school is gonna demand above a 1500 on the SAT. And even if you score well on the SAT, that doesn’t mean your GPA is perfect. You can ace every test and get points deducted from late assignments, missing HW, group projects etc
We rely heavily upon the major state universities for our scientific and engineering talent - and always have: UC Berkeley, University of Michigan, University of Washington, ... In many cases departments at these schools are higher rated than corresponding departments at most private Universities. The students are as smart and the education and research programs can be as good or better then the private universities. The second tier universities can and do feed their best students to graduate programs in the 1st tier and private universities. I sent my two younger kids to the University of Washington. Smart and disciplined students can do Running Start and enter the university as Juniors, cutting their undergraduate costs in half. They can reduce the costs even more if they can live at home and commute to the university.
What is sad about this is that one point in time University was truly a academic institution. It was where bright men had honest intellectual discussions and where you could research openly. But for decades we have been devaluing education by lowering standard. Russell Kirk in 1947 quit his job at the faculty of Columbia University Booksy disagree with them lower in standards. In his words this would slowly turn the university into a "diploma mill" and nearly 80 years on I can say without a doubt that Kirk was absolutely right. As he usually is
Elite university sucks. It destroys your soul, ruins your health, messes up your internal reward systems.
The only redeeming feature is being able to meet other cool, interesting, weird (but often broken) people.
But that gets old quickly and doesn't lead to a great life on its own.
There is no proof that going to an "elite" university has any benefits besides bragging rights. Especially for undergrad.
Plus, being the best student in a Gaulish village is more fun than being lost in a mass of strivers.
Maybe >125 IQ Americans are too smart to go to an elite university.
>There is no proof that going to an "elite" university has any benefits besides bragging rights. Especially for undergrad.
Not exactly.
https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/CollegeAdmissions_Paper.pdf
Thanks.
Because of the interest groups you mention, I think the only solution is to massively increase spending on universities. I would rather ensure that we have space for every smart person, at the expense of wasting money on dumb people, than shut out both. It looks bad, but this is only because people have difficulty visualizing the opportunity cost of excluding smart people. Where do they go? What do they do? It's hard to see the wealth that ends up not being generated as a result of exclusion.
It is really a huge loss if a 125+ iq individual attends a less prestigious university? I vaguely remember some journal articles saying that it is was better to be the big fish in a small pond than a regular one in a big one. Basically that it was better to be the one of the best student in a smaller university than a regular one in Harvard.
(I know, they probably cited « stoodies » instead of real science)
>It is really a huge loss if a 125+ iq individual attends a less prestigious university?
Not a huge loss. But they miss out on network effects + signalling.
https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/CollegeAdmissions_Paper.pdf
Name checks out
This analysis is both trivial and not very insightful. I doubt that IQ and ACT score are highly correlated past a lower bound of say a 33. Additionally, many of the non test score factors that actually decide admission (since test scores don’t really matter for elite admissions past a threshold) seem to be just those factors that differentiate someone who is *just* academically gifted from someone who is gifted and highly capable
>Additionally, many of the non test score factors that actually decide admission (since test scores don’t really matter for elite admissions past a threshold) seem to be just those factors that differentiate someone who is *just* academically gifted from someone who is gifted and highly capable
Empirically, the nonacademic ratings that universities give students are not predictive of life outcomes.
https://opportunityinsights.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/CollegeAdmissions_Paper.pdf
There have been a lot of studies of average IQ by field of study. Some of the STEM fields routinely test with averages in the high one teens to mid 120's, putting students in those fields rougly on par with the students at elite universities.
In my experience cost is the most common reason. Students who can get into an elite school are also in the zone of being able to score really good scholarships with state schools. Not just mediocre schools, but upper level state schools with SAT averages above 1300 and sometimes above 1400. The second most common reason is that they weren’t academic tryhards (no offense to the academic tryhards). The average 125 IQ person is gonna get below a 1500 on the SAT but the average 125 IQ school is gonna demand above a 1500 on the SAT. And even if you score well on the SAT, that doesn’t mean your GPA is perfect. You can ace every test and get points deducted from late assignments, missing HW, group projects etc
We rely heavily upon the major state universities for our scientific and engineering talent - and always have: UC Berkeley, University of Michigan, University of Washington, ... In many cases departments at these schools are higher rated than corresponding departments at most private Universities. The students are as smart and the education and research programs can be as good or better then the private universities. The second tier universities can and do feed their best students to graduate programs in the 1st tier and private universities. I sent my two younger kids to the University of Washington. Smart and disciplined students can do Running Start and enter the university as Juniors, cutting their undergraduate costs in half. They can reduce the costs even more if they can live at home and commute to the university.
What is sad about this is that one point in time University was truly a academic institution. It was where bright men had honest intellectual discussions and where you could research openly. But for decades we have been devaluing education by lowering standard. Russell Kirk in 1947 quit his job at the faculty of Columbia University Booksy disagree with them lower in standards. In his words this would slowly turn the university into a "diploma mill" and nearly 80 years on I can say without a doubt that Kirk was absolutely right. As he usually is
What was your list of 25 elite universities?